SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER
MINISTER FINANCE
MINISTER FOR WOMEN
MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE
MINISTER FOR GOVERNMENT SERVICES
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
2CC CANBERRA
THURSDAY, 24 APRIL 2025
SUBJECTS: ACT Senate contest; Dutton’s cuts; National Convention Centre; Dutton’s nuclear scheme; ACT Government-Federal Government relations.
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO, HOST: Time for our latest federal election debate. I'm calling this one the Senate scuffle. I like a bit of alliteration with these and it seems to have worked up until now. I dunno what I'm going to do with Eden-Monaro next week, but we'll work that out when we come to it. So, joining us in the studio, Labor Senator for the ACT and Finance Minister Katy Gallagher; David Pocock, independent senator for the ACT; and the Liberal candidate for the Senate, Jacob Vadakkedathu. We're going to do a one minute intro, give each candidate a one minute opening statement and then we'll open it up from there. Let's start with our longest serving senator and Finance Minister, Katy Gallagher. Good morning.
SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Thanks very much and thanks for having me on, and to Jacob and Dave for being here as well. Look, this election's really important. I think we say that all the time, but I think you can see a real contrast between the parties and what Labor wants to do, which is build our future, invest in services that matter for Australians like Medicare and medicines and early education and care, and an opposition who wants to pay $600 billion to build nuclear reactors around the country. So, I think that at the national level there's a real choice, but here in Canberra there's a lot at risk for us. And the big risk facing the ACT is Peter Dutton's threats to cut 41,000 Canberra based public servants. I've worked hard to make sure that Canberra gets a fair deal of infrastructure funding and programmes and responding to problems that we have in the ACT and it's been a real privilege to serve as the ACT Senator and I'm asking people for their continued support.
CENATIEMPO: David Pocock, good morning.
DAVID POCOCK, SENATOR FOR THE ACT: Hi Stephen. Thanks for having me. I promised to be accessible and accountable to Canberrans and stand up for the ACT, and I've done that. Over the last three years. I've held almost fifty community meetings, just in the last two days, I held a housing forum down in Tuggeranong, a youth forum at the ANU. Heard from over four hundred Canberrans. That's really what I see my role as doing, listening and then standing up. I've pushed hard to get more money for social and affordable housing. We've seen a convention centre feasibility study finally from the Federal Government, more money for bulk billing and respite care specifically for the ACT. We know that's a huge issue here, here in Canberra. More money for the Murrumbidgee River. All things that Canberrans really care. About as an Independent, I've seen time and time again the major parties team up to stop things like lobbying reform to stop getting more money from our gas exports to stop the release of ministerial diaries, to have a secretive National Anti-Corruption Commission. All things that I think we would expect better as a community. And so as an Independent, I'm in it to hold the major pace to account and we'd love to keep doing that
CENATIEMPO: Liberal candidate, Jacob Vadakkedathu. Good morning.
JACOB VADAKKEDATHU, LIBERAL ACT SENATE CANDIDATE: Good morning, Stephen. Thanks for having me. Look, this election is very important. It's about a choice for a better Australia, a better Canberra. It's about who can better manage the economy. And over the last three years, the living standard of Australia has gone backwards. Backwards, badly. Badly. We have seen twelve interest rate hikes, people struggling to pay the mortgage. So, we'll fix the economy, tame the inflation and cut interest rates. People can't afford to pay their mortgage. Grocery prices have gone up 30 per cent. Electricity, gas, everything. I mean before the last election, Anthony Albanese, the Prime Minister, mentioned 97 times your electricity bill will be reduced by $275. In fact, it's gone up more than $1,300 per year. And he said life would be better off, but it's gone backwards. Living standard gone backwards, productivity gone backwards 6 per cent, GDP growth. We are, you know, abandoned, you know, with resources, this country. And our GDP growth, 0.8 per cent. We should be better than that. And for ACT, look, we can't solely be reliant on the public service. I mean we need to diversify the economy. We've got 36,000 small business people here, employing two third of the employment here, 170,000 people. They are really struggling. The 30,000 insolvency – businesses shut down in the last year. And ACT has got the highest insolvency right here when it comes to small business. So, we need to diversify the economy, small businesses are the backbone of this country, and we need to diversify the economy. Infrastructure? Definitely, I'll strongly advocate for a national convention centre that will boost the economy. I mean, Labor Party saying that we will invest on infrastructure but seriously, it's been ten years more – I'll advocate strongly for that.
CENATIEMPO: I need to wrap up your opening statement there. Katy, I want to start – I'll ask you, Katy – bec ause the ACT is a unique jurisdiction. Now, it's very clearly not representative of the rest of Australia with the way it thinks and the way it acts. How do you balance that? Because there's been a lot of talk about what the reduction in the public service will mean for Canberra. The APS can't be a Ponzi scheme to prop up the ACT economy.
GALLAGHER: Well, the ACT was created as the seat of government. And so, it's no surprise that you have a large footprint of the Commonwealth Public Service here. It is the big employer in town. And so, a lot of what Jacob's just said about small business – a lot of small businesses rely on that activity. As other places around Australia where they have a big employer in town, their small business sector relies on that as a level of economic activity. So, I will strongly defend the role of Canberra as the seat of government, as the home of the public service and the important economic value add that it provides for businesses that operate here. If you cut 41,000 jobs from Canberra, which is what Peter Dutton has said he would do, you would decimate, absolutely decimate this local economy.
CENATIEMPO: You've only added those 41,000 in the last three years. Were we not decimated before that?
GALLAGHER: Well, two thirds of those are outside the ACT, right? So, it's actually improving Services Australia, Veterans' Affairs, Defence, national security, all of those jobs have not been in Canberra. What Peter Dutton is saying is, he said he will cut 41,000 Canberra-based jobs. We've got about 69,000 public servants here. You cut 41,000 of them, you would be abolishing entire departments, you would devastate town centres. I was in Woden yesterday. If you close the Department of Health, Woden town centre –
CENATIEMPO: But Katy, that's a red herring. Nobody's talking about closing whole departments. And as I say, if you only put them on the last three years, those departments existed before you put them on.
GALLAGHER: Well, they were contractors and consultants and labour hire –
CENATIEMPO: Which are still there.
GALLAGHER: No. Well, they are significantly reduced, Steve. We have rebuilt the public service from where it was. If you just think about Robodebt, if you think about PwC, if you think about expensive labour hire and consultants and contractors, that is not what we want to return to. And that's what Jacob and his team are saying they will return to.
CENATIEMPO: Well, Jacob, I'll let you respond to that, because this has been one of the key positions of the Coalition, is that they want to reduce the size of the public service. How do you do that without reducing frontline services?
VADAKKEDATHU: Look, we made it very clear, repeatedly, that we are not going to sack or terminate anyone, but we will deal through natural attrition over a five-year period. So, that 41,000, one third work here in ACT, and we will deal it through natural attrition. But what's happening – Katy mentioned about shutting down ten departments, that's wrong. That's not true. We don't intend to shut down any departments. We deal this through natural attrition over a five-year period, that's what's going to happen.
CENATIEMPO: Yeah, but how can you guarantee that 41,000 public servants are going to want to take redundancies or move on in a five-year period?
VADAKKEDATHU: Yeah, look, that's a timeframe. I mean, we will offer voluntary redundancies, but there won't be any forced redundancies. I mean we deal through natural attrition. As I said, there will be, if someone retires, then if we found that there's excess employees in that particular section or department.
CENATIEMPO: But getting back to the nuts and bolts of it, you can't guarantee the reduction then.
VADAKKEDATHU: I mean, over a five-year period or five period. We are trying to reduce the number. We're trying to reduce the number over a five-year period.
CENATIEMPO: David, I want to ask you, what are you hearing out there about, you know, has the access to frontline services and the service that the APS is providing improved since we've had these extra public servants put on?
POCOCK: If you look at all the measures, it's definitely improved. There's always improvement that needs to happen, even where we are. But if you look at Veterans' Affairs, Services Australia, clearly things have improved. And I think you have to give the current Labor government credit in actually starting to resource those frontline services better. I found this whole debate about the public service and this Canberra-bashing really disappointing. After ten years of a Coalition government that had things like city deals, the ACT was the only jurisdiction to miss out. And so, while it's great that Jacob says that he would be advocating for a convention centre, history says that that's not going to happen.
CENATIEMPO: But doesn't that – as the two sitting, and I'll put this to both of you, as the two sitting senators, isn't that your job to make sure that happens?
POCOCK: Yes, and that's what I've been advocating for.
GALLAGHER: That's what we've done.
CENATIEMPO: But I mean, prior to this government. I mean, it doesn't matter who's in government. It's your job as a Senator to advocate for your constituents regardless of who is in power at any one time, because the government will change again someday.
GALLAGHER: Well, and I think if you look at my record, and David's a strong advocate for Canberra too, go back and have a look. I mean, I was advocating for a convention centre and asking the Commonwealth to help pay for it when I was Chief Minister. We didn't have any luck. We didn't get our fair share under the Coalition government because they didn't care about Canberra. And that's pretty clear. That's not just me saying it. We didn't get our share of infrastructure, we didn't get measures to address particular Canberra issues like our bulk billing rate, and we didn't get any respect for the public service. And that's part of the reason why I went to the Senate, because those things matter to the town I was born in and have raised my family in. I don't want to see the Canberra bashing and the stuff that goes on under a Coalition government towards Canberra. It's got to end.
CENATIEMPO: Jacob, we'll go to that. But my question is though, doesn't that come back to the unrepresentative nature of Canberra when it comes to what the rest of the community? Because the Canberra bashing comes from outside Canberra because we look at Canberra and go, well hang on, this doesn't represent who we are as Australians.
GALLAGHER: Yeah, so that's why we're here arguing for Canberra and arguing for a fair share for Canberra. And since we came to Government, we have taken steps on the AIS, rebuilding the public service, dealing with some of the failing infrastructure, building the national security building, building light rail with the ACT Government, addressing the bulk billing shortage because the other measures hadn't worked and we had to have a Canberra-based response. All of those have happened because we have a Labor government here and the alternative is one that doesn't respect Canberra and one that is prepared to sack 41,000 workers.
VADAKKEDATHU: Steve, Steve. Look, it's sad to see, it's very disappointing to see, a few weeks before the election, the Labor Party coming along with this new proposal, we will build a National Convention Centre. Look, it should have been done long, long time ago. Canberra is the nation's capital. We should be hosting international events like G20 summits –
GALLAGHER: But you had ten years, Jacob, nothing happened.
VADAKKEDATHU: International business conferences. A Labor Party in power here in this Territory for more than two decades. We have a Labor government here and these two Senators, they've been ACT members, and it's very disappointing to see this announcement weeks before the election. We should be diversifying, as I mentioned earlier, we should be diversifying the economy. We can't solely be reliant on public service.
CENATIEMPO: Alright, I want to give David a go here. David, as somebody that is advocating for, and you came to power saying, well I can be the go-between between the [Federal] Government and the ACT Government. We tend to let the ACT Government off the hook a lot and blame the Federal Government for everything that goes wrong here. Surely the Federal Government needs to step in and the federal jurisdiction and say, well this is not being managed properly?
POCOCK: I guess what I've seen there is having an independent voice that doesn't have to tow party line – if you look at the ACT, it is a small jurisdiction and it's just been the safest of seats for our whole history. And so it is politically fairly inconvenient for the rest of the country to be seen to be investing in the ACT. I've really been trying to change that, to say Canberra is both our national capital, let's invest in culture institutions as Labor have done, but we're also a city in our own right. Let's have our own investment from the Federal Government. Yes, your point about the Territory government, I've been hugely frustrated about the fact that after saying that we're not getting investment because it's been a decade of Coalition governments, we've got a Labor federal government and basically no project that is costed, planned and ready to go. And so, I think it's very hard to fund things that the Territory isn't asking for. So, I've been pushing both levels of government really hard saying we've got to actually do better for people in the ACT.
CENATIEMPO: And Katy, as the Finance Minister, you've got to agree with that. I mean, because any State or Territory government has to come to you, well, I won't say cap in hand, but they've got to come to you with a business plan and a case to ask for money. The ACT Government never does that. So, it's hard to blame a Federal Government for not funding projects in Canberra when the ACT Government very rarely – and even this convention centre, they haven't come to you with a business case for this yet.
GALLAGHER: Well, we're going to jointly get to that point. I mean, we're working with the ACT Government and again, I think it's easy to point fingers and blame governments. I think the best opportunity for Canberra is governments that work together. And again, that was one of my frustrations when I was in the ACT parliament. I didn't feel like we got the best that we could have out of a Federal Government that didn't care about Canberra. And now I can pick up the phone to Andrew Barr, I can have a chat to Rachel Stephen-Smith about what's going on.
CENATIEMPO: Do they answer?
GALLAGHER: Yeah, of course they do. I hope not just because I'm the Finance Minister, but they do. And we've been able to reach agreement on a number of projects here, including the convention centre. But yeah, we need to get it to a point where we can make a further commitment. We know that the business case will identify the costs, but we're at the table, we're talking. And the former government under Turnbull, Morrison, Abbott, they weren't prepared to invest in a convention centre. They didn't care about Canberra. There would be more than ten years of letters going back to the Federal Government asking for assistance. We never got it.
CENATIEMPO: We do need to wrap up. So, thirty seconds, Jacob, one quick question for you. Literally ten seconds. Katy mentioned $600 billion for nuclear. We know that's a made-up figure. Why aren't you out there saying that?
VADAKKEDATHU: Yeah, that $600 billion, it's five times, done by the Smart Energy Council who's been donor for the Labor Party. The CSIRO costing was actually $160 billion. Our costing is $120 billion.
CENATIEMPO: David, I'll give you thirty seconds just to wrap up and then I'll come back to you, Katy, to finish
POCOCK: Well, I guess from my point of view, it's been a huge privilege to do what I'm doing. I'm committed to continuing to be accessible and accountable to people in the ACT to listening and then getting in there and actually fighting for the ACT. And I think for the first time we've seen some competition in politics in the ACT. And I think that's a great thing and I would urge people to look at minor parties and independence of selection.
CENATIEMPO: Alright, my last question to you, Katy. David keeps talking about accessibility. One of the criticisms of you is that you're not accessible. It's the first time you've ever been on this programme in five years. Will you be more accessible?
GALLAGHER: Well, I have done a lot of 2CC in my time, believe you, and a lot of time in the studio at 2CC. I am accessible and I know that that's a line being put out by political opponents of mine. But I balance my local responsibilities with my national responsibilities. But can I say we have never had an ACT person sit at the cabinet table, sit in the ERC and sit at that level and fight for Canberra. And that's exactly what I do. And this election is about keeping Peter Dutton out so that he doesn't savage my hometown.
CENATIEMPO: Katy, well, we look forward to having you on the programme more often after the election. Katy Gallagher, David Pocock. Jacob Vadakkedathu, thanks for coming in this morning.
ENDS
